Tag: Talk

Takeaways:

• Darius Garland’s resurgence has been pivotal to the Cavs’ success this season.
• Evan Mobley’s evolution is a cornerstone for the team’s offensive strategy.
• Kenny Atkinson’s coaching has diversified the Cavs’ offensive play.
• The 50-40-90 club is a significant achievement for any player and two Cavs players have the chance to add their name to a historic list.
• The Cavs, who entered 2025 with the best record in the NBA, feel disrespected by the lack of national media coverage.
• Reputations from past seasons affect current perceptions of the Cavs.
• The Cavs are focusing on long-term success over immediate wins.
• The trade deadline may not see major changes for the Cavs, as Jimmy Butler’s potential acquisition would disrupt team dynamics.
• The Cavs are positioned as legitimate title contenders with their current roster.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Chris, welcome to the new year, my friend. I know we didn’t have you here last episode. How does it feel to be finally a part of 2025?

Chris (00:26.178)

Feels great, Ethan. Feels even better because I got one of the most delicious dinners that you’re ever gonna get at any road stop for tonight. So, I’m feeling nice and full. I tried to walk it up. It wasn’t long enough of a walk. So I’m still kinda sitting here recovering from the big meal that I had, but it was wonderful. It is called Terry Black’s Barbecue in Dallas. It’s actually in Deep Ellum. Have you been there?

Ethan Sands (00:54.312)

Of course I have, Chris. Of course I have. As soon as you texted me and you were like, the line was long, I was like, I know where he is. He is not getting fast food. There’s no lines at regular sit down restaurants. He’s at the famous Terry Black’s.

Chris (00:55.532)

That a boy. Nice.

Chris (01:10.85)

Yeah, man, it’s good. I try and make a stop every time I come here to Dallas. The line is usually pretty long. It’s pretty packed in there, but I was able to make it over there. About a 30 minute walk or so from my hotel. Probably needed that baby to be about an hour to walk off everything that I ate for dinner. But those of you guys listening that don’t know, like you walk into a line and then the first thing that you do is you choose your sides.

So you can pick cream corn, you can pick green beans, you can pick mac and cheese, potatoes, you name it. And then if you want cornbread, you can add that in there too. And then you go up to the other portion of the line and you order the meat by the pound. And they cut it right in front of you, they weigh it right in front of you. So it’s so fresh, it’s so good. And you know, I got what?

pound of brisket and I think a half pound of ribs with some mac and cheese and some cornbread. And then I got a beverage too, unsweetened iced tea with a lemon, of course, because if you’re in Terry Black’s, that’s what you got to do to top it all off. And it was, it was wonderful. It is one of the best slices of brisket that you’re going to have at any location. Doesn’t matter if you’re in Houston, Memphis, Kansas City, Dallas.

Chicago is surprisingly good when it comes to barbecue Cleveland Cleveland has a couple of spots, but this brisket at Terry Black’s I’m gonna post a picture on social media, but wow Fantastic, so I’m feeling good man. What a way to ring in the new year Terry Black’s barbecue. Let’s go and Sparkling water to top it off

Ethan Sands (02:58.966)

Yep. my goodness. We’re not going to get into the sweet tea versus unsweet tea debate today. I will save that for offline. But Chris, yeah, my fiance is from part of her roots are from Plano. So she’s I’ve been to all of the different Dallas barbecue spots trying to test them out. We have like a list, a running list of going through different spots, but that’s definitely up there. But

Chris (03:11.458)

Yeah.

Chris (03:16.759)

Okay.

Ethan Sands (03:29.32)

No further we shall talk about food. know some of our I know I know we every time we do this we talk about having a calves food podcast instead of just a calves podcast but Our listeners that have made it this far three minutes four minutes in I hope you stick with us. We are going

Chris (03:32.536)

That’s a bummer.

Chris (03:39.404)

Hehehehe

Chris (03:47.691)

one more thing. Hold on, one more thing.

Got the cup, baby. This is going home with Chris. Terry Black’s barbecue. This is gonna be added to my collection of cups that I take from the road. So I got the souvenir cup, wonderful.

Ethan Sands (03:54.025)

Hahaha!

Ethan Sands (04:06.738)

Attaboy, attaboy. So gotta take something from road everywhere you go. But for the listeners and the watchers that have made it through the four minutes of talking about food, the deliciousness that is Terry Blacks, it is time for another rendition of Hey Chris, where we take questions from our subscribers on subtext and we answer them directly. And if you list your name, your state, whatever.

Chris (04:19.694)

Mmm. Mmm.

Ethan Sands (04:33.898)

you get a little shout out on the podcast as well. Before we get into all these questions, I want to say thank you guys for everybody who was tuned in from the 2024 season, for coming back into us with 2025 and the fact that we got to talk and do a lot of different things when it comes to this 29 and four Cavs team that’s on a 72 game win pace, along with some accolades that happened today, Evan Mobley, Eastern Conference Defensive Player of the Month.

That is the first time a Cleveland Cavaliers player has had it because it’s only the second time that the award has been dished out Kenny Atkinson to Two full months into being the head coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers Has already won coach of the month twice So that might tell you how good this team is playing but without further ado Let’s get into some of these questions and the first one comes from Joe in Chicago. He says

What is the biggest difference between this year and last year? I know we’re shooting better and more efficient and more healthy, but that doesn’t add up to winning over 80 % of your games. What else has changed or why are the Cavs such a strong offense this year? We had a great chemistry last year and the players haven’t really changed. So what clicked for the squad? Is Kenny just a Cavs whisperer?

Chris (05:59.086)

Like I think there are a couple of things before you get into the system changes and before you talk about the coaching influence of Kenny Atkinson. First and foremost, this is a different version of Darius Garland. Darius was bad last year. Everybody understands that. Darius has gone on the record in a conversation with me at the beginning of the season during training camp saying this was last year was one of the most difficult seasons of his life.

One of the things that he was dealing with off the floor was obviously the fractured jaw, but he also lost his grandmother. And he said that, you know, he lost his joy for the game of basketball. And you could see that within Darius. He was getting pushed around physically. He wasn’t playing to the standards that he felt like he was capable of. And it just was a miserable year all around from Darius. So Darius is back to being the All-Star that he was a couple of years ago.

And when he’s playing at an all-star level, this is going to be a different team. When he’s breaking down a defense the way that he has this year, when his turnover numbers are down and his assist numbers are up and his shooting percentages are more what you’re accustomed to from Darius, it’s going to make the Cavs look like a different offense. That’s first and foremost. The second thing is Evan Mobley is a different player. There is a natural evolution that he has undergone within his career.

He’s not as reliant on his teammates to create shots for him. He’s shooting a better percentage from three point range. He’s over 40 % from three point range. So it changes how defenses have to guard him and guard the Cavs when he’s knocking down 43 % of his threes. He’s getting the ball off the glass and pushing it in transition, initiating offense quickly. He’s being used as a pick and roll ball handler more than he ever has throughout the course of his career.

But he’s just different. He’s stronger. He’s more comfortable. He’s more confident. He’s more mature. Going through what he did in the playoffs against Orlando first and then Boston in the second round, that was really, really good for Evan. He feels empowered. And I think he’s playing with a level of freedom and decisiveness that is just different than last year. The other thing is Darius missed six weeks last year.

Chris (08:20.998)

Evan Mobley missed six weeks last year. Those two absences overlapped with one another. You’re going to feel that you’re going to be affected by that as a team. And then the other thing is the obvious one. Kenny Atkinson. Kenny has diversified this offense. he has put more cutting into this offense. he’s put more movements, more ball movement into this offense. and there’s just more diversity within this offense that, makes it.

a little bit difficult for a defense to deal with because it’s not as predictable. They still run a bunch of pick and roll. They’re going to run a bunch of pick and roll because Darius and Donovan are great pick and roll players and Jared’s a great pick and roll big and the same thing with Evan Mobley. But it’s the actions that they’re running within that. It’s the movement that’s being created within that. It’s the triggers that are being created within that. It’s the random cuts that are happening.

know, opposing defenses don’t know who a play is going to finish with. Opposing defense don’t know all the time who the offense is going to funnel through. Obviously Darius, Donovan, Evan, they’re going to be the primary shot makers, primary shot creators. They’re going to get a big chunk of the volume. They’re going to get a big chunk of the usage, but there are other guys sprinkled in throughout the course of a possession that are touching it, that are swinging it.

that are sharing the ball with each other. So the system that Kenny has put in place is very player friendly. It allows these guys to play with a different level of confidence and freedom. And it suits the personnel that the Cavs have. And I think all of that combined, along with the contributions that they’re getting off the bench basically on a nightly basis, I think it leads to them having

what has been statistically the number one offense in the NBA.

Ethan Sands (10:22.582)

Yeah, and you made some really good points, Chris. I feel like the one that I liked the most about the difference in this team, and it goes in hand with the Kenny Atkinson pieces, how confident this team is, no matter if they’re a star, a starter, a bench player, a role player, whether they’re coming off the bench for five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. It feels like everybody has been empowered by this team. And that’s what Kenny Atkinson said in his speech today at SMU.

after Donovan Mitchell quote like not so surprisingly surprised him with the news of him being a coach of the month. Right. No, yeah. But I’m saying it wasn’t a surprise that he was going to be coach of the month.

Chris (10:58.936)

Kenny didn’t know. Kenny didn’t know.

Chris (11:06.702)

No, I don’t think it was a surprise that he was going to be coach of the month. The Knicks are playing really, really well. So I think there is at least a level of debate about it. And Kenny certainly didn’t know that it was coming today. He was very, very surprised. I was inside the gym at that time and Donovan signaled everybody to come over to center court. And as a joke, the player started singing Happy Birthday because oftentimes when it’s somebody’s birthday,

they gather at center court and then they sing happy birthday to somebody. So they jokingly started singing happy birthday before telling Kenny that he had won coach of the month. So you’re right, it wasn’t a surprise. mean, like look at the Cavs and look at everything that they have done over the last month. But the Knicks are playing really, really good basketball too. So I think there was at least like some of a debate about would Kenny get it a second time?

and he was very, very surprised, but he loved it.

Ethan Sands (12:06.228)

I think that’s fair. I wrote in the article, not so surprisingly. So there’s a little bit of a little bit of surprise there, right? But I feel like when listening back to what was said from Cav social and what he said after the Cav players yelled for him to give a speech, that it’s basically the same team, but their job is to empower everybody. And if you talk to anybody that’s

Chris (12:11.126)

Hahaha!

Ethan Sands (12:35.774)

in the locker room, you can go from all the way down to bottom of Craig Porter Jr. and who was still getting assignments with the G League, or you can go all the way up to Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley and Darius Garland, who are the three probably biggest players for the Cavs. Not probably, they are the biggest players for the Cavs. But they all understand that the empowerment of Kenny Atkinson has allowed them to play at a different level, along with the sacrifices that Donovan Mitchell and Jared Allen have made.

Chris (12:54.145)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (13:04.758)

to allow them to get to this level. moving on to the next question for this episode comes from James in Nebraska and it goes into a little bit more about what you were talking about with Darius Garland. He says, Hello, Sports Illustrated mentioned today that DG has a chance to join the 50-40-90 club. Statistically significant or statistics junk? I mean,

I don’t think you can consider 50-40-90 statistics junk when only nine other players have like achieved the feat, right? We look at Darius Garland right now. He’s 49.3 % from the field, 42.7 % from three, and he is shooting 90.9 % from the free throw line. And if you’re asking yourself and asking me who the other players are that have done and accomplished the 50-40-90,

Chris (13:53.036)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (14:01.064)

It’s Larry Byrd who did it twice, Steve Nash who did it four times, Malcolm Brockton, Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Reggie Miller, Dirk Nowitzki, and Mark Price. And if you want to go a little bit further and say that, and count Kyrie Irving that who played just 54 games in the 2020-2021 season with the Brooklyn Nets, he also achieved it. So that would be your ninth player. But Chris, how significant is this?

Chris (14:30.528)

incredibly significant. You know, there’s somebody else on the cabs who’s flirting with 50-40-90. You realize that, right? Ty Jerome. He’s right around there. And I had a conversation, when I sat down with Ty recently for a big feature that I’m working on, that I’m still piecing together. 50-40-90 came up and he mentioned how significant it was. And, know, Darius probably isn’t going to come out and be bombastic about it or anything along those lines.

But yes, it’s very significant to have that level of efficiency to join that kind of company. And it’s something that if you’re a guard, if you’re a player that prides yourself on efficiency and shooting and things like that, you want to be part of that club without a doubt. So no, I don’t think that’s just a flippant number. I don’t think that’s something that is quote unquote insignificant.

I think it’s not something that Darius is gunning for and he’s not all of a sudden going to start changing his shot selection so that he can make sure that he stays around 50 % and stuff like that. He’s going to play the game. He’s not going to think about it, but if he accomplishes it, it is a big deal.

Ethan Sands (15:43.326)

Yep. And I agree. I think it’s just something to keep an eye on. And especially if Ty Jerome is pushing them as well. think it’s a conversation that they’re having internally, but it’s not something that they’re over looking forward to. It’s kind of like the regular season win total numbers, Chris. I don’t think it’s something that isn’t in the back of their mind, but they’re more focused on the playoffs and making sure that they can make a run with this team that would prove.

that they are legit. But the next question comes from Ryan in the great city of Cleveland, Ohio as he writes it. I’m very confident in our team this year and every game has been fun to watch. My one question to you guys is, when will the national media give us the respect we deserve? Do you think that the Cavs players feel significantly bothered by not getting the recognition? Hopefully this gets to you guys. I’d love to hear the answer. Chris.

I know we’ve talked about this a little bit, but what do you think is the mindset for the CAS when it comes to getting noticed or not getting noticed by national media and national coverage?

Chris (16:54.198)

Yes, they are bothered by it. The organization is bothered by it. Evan Mobley stayed back in Los Angeles so that he could do a TV appearance on NBA Today with Malika Andrews, trying to get him a little bit of shine, trying to get him some publicity, trying to put the Cavs into the national spotlight. They have made comments both publicly and privately about the number of national TV games that they have.

They have made comments both publicly and privately about the number of reporters that are in their locker room for road games, for home games. And today, one of the big conversations amongst the players was the fan returns for the All-Star voting and how the hell the Mellow Ball leads guards in the Eastern Conference. There were many players on the Cavs that just could not process that. They could not understand that.

It’s a six-win Charlotte team. It’s freaking Charlotte. In terms of basketball, the Charlotte Hornets are below Duke, NC State, just in their own state, in their own area. So a lot of players were baffled by the fact that Lamello is leading the Eastern Conference Guards in the first fan returns. So yeah, I do think it bothers them, and I do think that it’s something that…

I don’t know that it fuels them necessarily, but it’s almost like something that they can shove in people’s faces after the fact if they continue to be this team. You know, there’s so many different things that they’re focused on and there’s so many different things that they’re giving their attention to, but they care about this kind of stuff. They do. And it bothers them that Darius Garland did not appear in the top 10 in the fan voting. It bothers them that Jared Allen did not appear.

in the top 10 and fan voting. I had one player talk to me the other night following one of their road games and said, you got to do what you can to get Darius on the All-Star team. I said, look man, like I vote for starters. That’s my responsibility. The coaches pick the reserves and Darius’ best chance is going to be as a reserve. So if he doesn’t get it, don’t look at me.

Chris (19:17.484)

And don’t look at the media. That’s going to be on the coaches to make that determination. So yeah, I like I don’t think they’re consumed with the fact that they aren’t getting talked about more, that they aren’t getting praised more. But it does bother them. There’s no doubt about it. And I think the reason why they don’t get as much national publicity is because there’s still this…

There’s still this hangover effect from the previous two years in the playoffs. And I think there are people that are wondering, okay, is this just another example of a great regular season team that is going to flame out in the playoffs? Or are they truly legit title contenders that they’re better equipped to make a deep run in the postseason?

And I think people are continuing to wonder that about the Cavs and it doesn’t have as much to do about this season’s team or how they’ve performed this season. It has to do with last year and the year before that. And we’ve talked about this, Ethan, reputations are hard to shake. They are. And the Cavs have this reputation despite how well they’ve played this year and they’ve been great. Like everything points to them.

playing as one of the best teams of all time. Like the things that they are doing, the only teams in NBA history that have done it have either won the championship or gotten to the finals and lost. Like their point differential, the number of double digit wins, the fact that they’re top 10 in offense and defense. Like all these different things, their record through the first 33 games. Like the only other teams that have done that.

are some of the best teams in NBA history. Those are the kinds of numbers that they’re putting up, but they have this reputation as a team who hasn’t been able to get it done in the playoffs. So I think there are some people that are trying to take this wait and see approach because the regular season in so many ways has been devalued throughout the course of the last five to 10 years. And I think a lot of people are saying, okay, cool, show us in April, May and June.

Ethan Sands (21:39.222)

Yeah, and I think it’s important because all those things are true. And you mentioned the three teams that are the only other teams that have been had a better record through this point of the season entering the new year. One of them being the 2015, 2016 Golden State Warriors who hold the record for the most wins in a season. They lost in the NBA finals, right? The other two teams won.

NBA Finals, Boston Celtics, and the Chicago Bulls. obviously, if you want to point this out, the Warriors lost to the Cavaliers, but that was a completely different team. Okay, moving on to the next question from our subtexters. This one comes from Julie Bradshaw in Norton, and it says, early on this year, you guys, ye of little faith,

Chris (22:16.749)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (22:33.376)

put out a poll of various scenarios regarding Evan Mobley. One of the choices was basically blowing up the season to focus on his development. It was so, no, I was so offended, ha ha ha, at how many people were in favor. So I guess I am wondering how well you feel that poll has aged, considering where we are now, Evan seems to be developing just fine.

I remember this poll, right? you don’t remember it?

Chris (23:04.662)

I don’t. No, not at all. So you take this one.

Ethan Sands (23:09.576)

Well, we were talking about how Evan Mobley is coming into the season. We didn’t know how much of an evolution he was going to have. He looked great in summer workouts, all these different things, but you can only learn so much from videos on the internet that are highlight reel composed. Obviously everybody points to Ben Simmons having some of the best workouts in the summertime and then coming and looking like Ben Simmons in the regular season. But the

Options I believe I should pull this up actually let me just do that really quickly because I don’t feel like the the options were too far off it was just

Ethan Sands (24:06.132)

No, what do you know what the thing is called that we use for polls? Okay.

go to an email from Dave yelling at me to do.

Ethan Sands (24:25.814)

crowdsignal.

Ethan Sands (24:44.054)

Should I have had this pulled up? Probably.

my content.

Ethan Sands (25:28.138)

Okay, so there’s no poles with the name Evan Mowgli in them. Great. Okay, whatever. Moving on. Okay. So basically the options were seemingly that we would see how Evan developed and the CAS would prioritize his development over regular season wins or they would go out and try and get regular season wins and poke those up to

Chris (25:32.663)

Okay.

Chris (25:47.917)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (25:57.448)

ensure that they got a better seating while minimizing their focus on Evan Mobley as they had done in the past. And that’s something that Colby Altman had mentioned after last season and before this season saying that they were going to change and try and prioritize Evan Mobley. And obviously Kenny Atkinson was a big part of that. know conversations that were had during his interview process were solely or mainly focused on how Evan Mobley and Jared Allen were going to work.

Chris (26:21.038)

I’m

Ethan Sands (26:25.184)

getting Evan Mobley more acclimated into the offense, all these different things. So obviously I think the buzzword that you used earlier in the season, Chris, that might have ruffled some feathers, ruffled some feathers was growing pains of Evan Mobley and all those different things. And sure, there have been those. And if you look into the last two games, Evan Mobley’s shooting numbers haven’t been all that great.

but he has still been effective and got his buckets as much as he’s needed to and also been able to help everybody else around him while also being, as we mentioned, Defensive Player of the Month, which showcases what he’s been able to do on that end of the floor. So Chris, I want to ask you, do you feel like Evan Mobley’s evolution has had more growing pains than you think he’s had, he’s shown success and been able to kind of grow into himself?

seamlessly more than not this season.

Chris (27:28.268)

yeah, mean, Evan has shown that he was ready for this. And that’s the big takeaway, I think. It is a new role. He is being used a different kind of way. There were different things that Kenny Atkinson, when Kenny went to visit Evan for the first time in Los Angeles and meet with him for the first time, he basically gave him an outline of these are the things that we’re planning to do with you. So whatever you can do.

within your own player development in the off season to be ready for this role, to be ready to catch the ball in these spots, to be ready to be used in a certain kind of way. Do that. Add different elements to your workouts. And then when Kenny went to go visit Evan the second time, he noticed that he was working on all those different things that Kenny Atkinson asked him to work on.

So he was ready for, for this change coming into this year and he has been great. And it is surprising to me how comfortable he has been, in this offense, given, you know, just how different his role is. Like I talked about earlier, he’s not, he’s not as reliant on his teammates creating shots for him. If you look at his percentage of baskets, that have been unassisted compared to years past.

It’s night and day. If you look at his percentage of usage as a pick and roll ball handler versus year past, it’s night and day. So all of these things are different for Evan, but he has made it so that there aren’t as many growing pains because he’s been so good because he has been so consistent from the beginning of the season to now.

and because he, he worked on the things that he had to work on in the off season so that he could be ready for this. So all the credit goes to Evan. It also goes to his teammates. Jared Allen has willingly taken a step back to elevate Evan. Donovan Mitchell has willingly taken a step back to empower Evan. and all these different things have, have come together. And yeah, at times there have been growing pains, but the difference is the calves are so good that.

Chris (29:50.99)

they get overshadowed. The Cavs are so good that it’s not affecting the end result of these games. You know what I mean? Like it takes a lot. JJ Reddick said the other night, you have to play almost perfect basketball to beat this Cavaliers team. So even if Evan does have some growing pains in stretches of the season, or if Isaac has to shake off some rust when he comes back from a shoulder injury or Max Truss,

has to shake off some rust when he comes back from a nine week layoff or whatever the case may be, it doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily going to lead to losses because this team’s so good that they can overcome those things. This team is so explosive, they’re so deep, they have so much firepower that they can overcome a bad half a basketball, turn it on, flip a switch and then win by double digits. You know what I’m saying? So I do think…

I do think there are noticeable changes within Evan Mobley. And even if, you know, at times he has struggled with his efficiency, it’s rare, but even if he has, like, it doesn’t have to lead to a loss. Even if Donovan Mitchell has a bad shooting night, it no longer has to lead to a loss because there’s enough other guys on this roster that can pick up the slack, that feel empowered, that are confident in this system.

that find a way to overcome some of those kinds of things.

Ethan Sands (31:25.856)

Chris, I’ve been picking my brain trying to find this episode or this poll that was mentioned in reference. And not to say that I don’t believe it happened. And I know we’ve had this conversation. I’m just trying to find the exact poll to reference and give our YouTube watchers and our listeners something to reference, but I can’t find it. So we’re just gonna have to.

Chris (31:51.478)

I also want to say this, Ethan, the Cavs are not chasing wins. They’re not. They’re happening organically. These wins are happening organically. They’ve sat guys for rest purposes. They’ve extended how long a guy has been out because they want to take this cautious approach. They’re eliminating the minutes of some of their main players. Like it is a running joke in the locker room with Donovan Mitchell.

about how many times he crosses the 30 minute threshold. He’s aware of it, right? So if they were chasing wins, know, Donovan would be playing 36 to 38 minutes. If they were chasing wins, know, Max Struz probably wouldn’t have been out nine weeks. He probably would have come back closer to like seven and a half, eight weeks. If they were chasing wins, Isaac Okoro might play this weekend. I don’t think he’s going to play this weekend because I think they’re going to continue to be cautious with him.

If they were chasing wins, you know, they wouldn’t operate as an organization the way that they have. So you can win games without chasing them. You can win games without taking the win at all costs type approach. And that’s one of the most beautiful things about these calves. It’s like they’re not sacrificing short term stuff or long term stuff.

for what they want to become and what they want to accomplish in the short term. And that’s really, really important because there’s still this long-term plan, there’s still this big picture plan, and there hasn’t been a moment where the calves have had to deviate from that or anything along those lines.

Ethan Sands (33:36.406)

All right, Chris, moving on to our last question of today’s Hey Chris episode. It comes from Stefan in Parma. And he says, although there is lots of internet talk about trades, the Cavs could make before the deadline. It seems likely to me that they will stand pat. What are your thoughts on this? And Chris, I’m interested because there have been different conversations had in national media. have been different conversations had.

around the internet about what the Cavs could do, should do with Dean Wave, Max True, Kara Sivert, Ty Jerome, all these guys who have made substantial impacts to this 29 and 14 thus far. And I’m interested to see because we had this conversation nearing the trade deadline last year and we both came to the conclusion that we didn’t think that the Cavs were going to make a move. Do you have that same feeling this year?

Chris (34:33.432)

think if they do anything with this roster, it is not going to be a significant shakeup. Because they don’t have to make a significant shakeup to this roster. Because they don’t have to make a significant addition to this roster. And the other thing is like, every time people want to talk about an addition at the trade deadline, and that’s totally fine and that’s totally valid, but when it comes to the calves, just given their trade assets,

And given the way that this roster is constructed, you know, any addition is also going to require a subtraction. And I just don’t feel like the Cavs are in a position where they want to subtract much from this team because everybody has played a role. Everybody that you would hear mentioned in a potential trade and look, Dean Wade cannot go anywhere. I know that I’m the mayor of Dean Wade Island, but he is so important.

to them competing with the Boston Celtics and the Atlanta Hawks and the New York Knicks and the Milwaukee Bucks and some of these other teams that they’re going to see during their Eastern Conference playoff run. And if the Cavs are going to go out and try and make any addition, even a small one, they would be trying to acquire a player like Dean Waite. Size, length, athleticism, switchability, versatility.

can play the three, can play the four, can guard Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, can guard Mikael Bridges and OGN and Nobi, can downsize and play maybe some small ball five. Like that would be the type of player that the Cavs would be going out to try and get. You can’t get one of those players and sacrifice a player just like him. You know what I mean? So I think we can stop the Dean Wade stuff.

And I think if we want to have like a conversation about the more quote unquote expendable pieces, we’re talking about Jalen Tyson. We’re talking, and I don’t know that the Cavs want to go that way. They like Jalen and he’s on a very team friendly controllable rookie contract, which is really, really important based on the salary structure that they have on this roster. It is a top heavy roster.

Chris (36:54.19)

And somebody like Jalen Tyson for the next four or five years on a rookie deal helps offset that, helps with team building. But, you know, he’s somebody who’s not getting any kind of playing time. So if you’re taking this all in approach, let’s go for it this year, then Jalen Tyson is somebody that you would theoretically sacrifice and it wouldn’t be considered a short-term subtraction. Ty Jerome is another player to look at.

I would say George Niang would be a player to look at despite the fact that, you know, he’s really, really important behind the scenes and he’s been really important to the second unit. And Kenny Atkinson has raved about him as a connector. It would be the 2031 first round pick. It would be the second round picks that they have at their disposal. Like those kind, maybe Sam Merrill, low contract type guy on an expiring deal could be appealing to another team.

What do they do about Karis Laverte, who’s on an expiring contract, who was supposed to be a potential trade chip for this team coming into the season? Do they feel like they can find somebody who’s a little bit better than Karis that has maybe another year of control than Karis? Like those are the kinds of conversations that the Cavs are going to have internally. But I think at the end of the day, it’s going to come down to there’s nobody that we can bring to this organization within reason.

that is going to be a significant upgrade over what we have. And one of the things that we have is chemistry and togetherness and continuity. And breaking that up is very, very risky when you’re talking about this kind of team. So to me, the most likely addition that they make, if they do make an addition, it would come in the buyout market, similar to what they did last year with Marcus Morris Sr.

because I just don’t think they want to trade away a rotation player or two rotation players given the importance of everybody to this start, given the importance of everybody to the team chemistry and the continuity and the togetherness in the locker room. And I just don’t think they want to go that direction because they understand just how delicate it is.

Ethan Sands (39:13.568)

Kristen, I know you mentioned Sam Merrill and as you reported earlier today to our subtexters, he did not practice. He was getting stuff done with his ankle and stuff like that. So I got a couple of, well, one key date to look forward to for the Cavs and to see what goes on when you talk about the trade stuff because according to Spot Rack, Sam Merrill, Craig Porter Jr., and Tristan Thompson are set to have their contracts fully guaranteed

Chris (39:20.814)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (39:43.094)

on January 10th. So Merrill’s deal this year is a fully non-guaranteed, whereas Craig Porter Jr.’s is partial. I think it’s around a million dollars. So those are the three guys that are not on guaranteed deals that could be something to look at when it comes to the trade deadline as well.

Chris (40:02.114)

Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, there’s a log jam, there is a realistic log jam coming for the Cavs when they’re at full strength, if they get to full strength. But if you’re Kobe Altman, you know, doing anything to a 29 and four team, doing anything to a legitimate title contender where, you know, any move that they would have to make.

For the kind of player that would make such a dent that would make such an impact You know that guy’s gonna make 15 to 20 25 million dollars something along those lines That requires sending away two rotational pieces That’s a risky thing when you talk about breaking up the depth of this team breaking up the chemistry of this team, so I know

I’ve talked with a number of different people around the NBA during this road trip and I’ve asked them point blank, if you’re Kobe Altman, what do you do at the deadline? And every single one of them has said, Chris, nothing, absolutely nothing. But I will give a name because his name has been linked to other different places. And it’s more like a lesser name and it’s not a move the needle type move like cam Johnson.

like the Doreen Finney Smith move that the Lakers just pulled off, like Deandre Hunter potentially. Those types of players I know Cavs fans have kind of latched onto because theoretically they’d be really good fits and theoretically they’re the types of players that could help the Cavs, but their salaries make it really, really difficult.

the name that I’ve heard recently, just in general discussion around the NBA, and he’s a lower salaried guy, so it’s probably more realistic for a team like the Cavs, because of what they would have to send out to match that number. It’s John Contrar of the Memphis Grizzlies, who is very Dean weighty, if we’re being perfectly honest. But he’s on a deal.

Chris (42:15.928)

for another two years at a really, really valuable number of around $6 million. He’s kind of got the same size as Max Struce and Isaac Kikoro. So that’s not ideal. You’d rather have somebody who’s like six foot seven, six foot eight. Julian Champagney is another name that I’ve heard, although I given his contract and how team friendly it is, I bet the San Antonio Spurs would want at least a first round pick for him.

and would you be willing to give up at least a first-round pick for somebody who’s probably gonna be like a seventh eighth ninth guy in this rotation once you get to the playoffs but like those lower salaried not marquee names I think that’s where the Cavs will be shopping unless they feel like there’s somebody out there that they just can’t say no to that they can get at such a Cavs friendly cost

I don’t think that’s a reality, but you never discount that or something like that happening in the NBA around the time of the trade deadline because teams sellers sometimes can get just as desperate as buyers depending on what the motivations are.

Ethan Sands (43:31.734)

All right, Chris, I want to get ahead of this before our listeners and people that are inside our information got subtext access. All this other stuff started asking us about it. Jimmy Butler and the Miami Heat just lost to the Indiana Pacers and he just took to his post game press conference to say that he’s lost his joy for basketball and has said that he does not feel like he can gain his joy back playing for the Miami Heat. So to get ahead of this.

and plainly pointed as possible, do you think the cast could make any move to get Jimmy Butler and still feel like they are where they are or do you feel like it’d be a horizontal move rather than something that would improve them?

Chris (44:20.536)

He makes $50 million. So you just start there. You have to make a deal legal. So in order to get to his $50 million number, you want to Donovan Mitchell? No. And Donovan’s only 35, so you’d have to find, and you’re not trading Donovan Mitchell, but this is how like almost outlandish this conversation is for a team like the Cavs.

Donovan Mitchell and Max Struce together is just a starting point in terms of matching salary, right? Darius Garland and Max Struce is just a starting point in terms of matching salary. Darius Garland and Karis Levert is just a starting point in terms of matching salary. No, I think that’s too much of a shakeup for a team like the Cavs that they can do something special.

without Jimmy Butler. They can do something special without Jimmy Butler disrupting everything that they’ve worked so hard to build here. So I do not think that the Cavs are going to be in the Jimmy Butler sweepstakes. And Miami has come out and said they’re not trading him anyway. That’ll be really, really interesting to see what happens there because it’s not often that a team comes out with a press release from somebody.

with the hood spa of Pat Riley that says, you know, we don’t usually comment on rumors or anything along those lines. We’re not trading Jimmy Butler. Like what? The Miami Heat just did that? Pat Riley just did that? That is rare in the NBA, let alone for a team like Miami that talks about Heat culture and all that kind of stuff. So they have said that they’re not trading Jimmy Butler, that they don’t think it’s in their best interest.

to trade Jimmy Butler and I would just say I don’t think it’s in the Cavs best interest to get involved in the Jimmy Butler stuff because of what they would have to give up in order to get him. And how much of a shakeup that would be both in the locker room and with their roster and in terms of their playing style and stuff like that.

Ethan Sands (46:32.736)

Completely agree. I just think our listeners and watchers needed to hear from you, the Cavs Insider, before anything broke out about potentially being in the sweepstakes because they are not. And I don’t think they will be. But.

Chris (46:39.715)

Well.

Chris (46:50.296)

I mean, they’re probably, I don’t know, Ethan, I don’t want to just throw out a number without like digging really, really deep into it. But to me, there are like three teams that could legit, probably four, let’s say four, four teams that could legitimately win the NBA championship this year. And the Cavs are one of them, right? So like, how much do you really have to fix this roster, quote unquote, fix this roster?

How much do you really have to change this roster? The answer is not a lot. Now, look, if you get to the playoffs and you don’t have the kind of playoff run that you expect to have, given the regular season that the Cavs look like they’re going to have, all right, then you consider some shakeups in the off season. You know what I’m saying? But like that kind of player, that kind of move,

that kind of change within your system and within your locker room and stuff like that, to me, that’s more of an off season conversation than it is an in season conversation. The teams that should be looking at Jimmy Butler are the ones that are trying to get to the level that the Cavs have gotten to already, right? The teams that are in the West trying to compete with the Oklahoma City Thunder, the teams not named Boston, Cleveland, and probably New York.

in the Eastern Conference. Those are the teams that should be looking at Jimmy Butler, not a team like the Cavs that could legitimately have multiple All-Stars, and one of those would have to go probably in order to get Jimmy.

Ethan Sands (48:32.534)

Alright Chris, I think that’s a great place to end today’s podcast just because I feel like you, you mentioned it. Bringing it back to the camaraderie and the joy of this team of what has been created and how far they’ve come over the last three seasons. They’ve gone from a first round exit to a second round exit. And I agree with you. If they get to the third round exit or they don’t get there, then they can have conversations of what

Chris (48:54.638)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (49:01.468)

again, they need to do to make more of a growth in this organization. But I think you have to wait and see as everybody is doing with the Cavs, right? Got to wait till the playoffs to wait and see what happens in the end of it. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy.

by subscribing to Subtext. If you want to be included in the next Hey Chris episode, then subscribe and send in your questions. So to do that, sign up for a 14-day trial or visit cleveland.com/Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs.

from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.